Author Topic: Zimbabwe and Mugabe  (Read 221 times)

Timinator

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Zimbabwe and Mugabe
« on: November 23, 2017, 03:28:43 PM »
I'm not sure if this is making the news where you are, but after 37 years of corruption, a dictator has been forced to stand down.  He did many things wrong in his overlong time holding onto power. 500 billion% inflation at its peak is the type of stuff you'd only hear in movies.  At 93, he has lived far longer than he probably should have.  But when you can take state funds and fly yourself to the best hospitals around the world that is to be expected.

Who knows if his replacement will be an improvement.  I just know that I've been waiting for this day for a LONG time!

Darkness

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Re: Zimbabwe and Mugabe
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2017, 04:44:45 AM »
All over the news in the UK.

Hard to argue that the situation in Zimbabwe was unlikely to improve had Grace Mugabe taken the reins from Robert. Nepotism rarely bodes well for progress and democracy.

That said, I'm not convinced that Mnangagwa is the shining beacon of hope Zimbabwe needs, he's been too close to Mugabe and his past isn't suggestive of someone who will bring a progressive democratic regime to the country.

syn

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Re: Zimbabwe and Mugabe
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2017, 07:04:37 AM »
prominent in the news in the US as well.

skeptical, like Darkness. but Mnangagwa did say he'd keep the election scheduled for next year... and he's 75. young compared to Mugabe, perhaps.
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Darkness

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Re: Zimbabwe and Mugabe
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2017, 08:18:05 AM »
and he's 75. young compared to Mugabe, perhaps.

Yes, at 75 he'll be able to connect with the "youth" voter movement in their 60s.

Timinator

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Re: Zimbabwe and Mugabe
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2017, 01:27:45 PM »
I wonder what will happen with all those voters born 1/1/1900 who helped Mugabe to all those electoral victories.  They could be the swing vote.  Good to hear the news is around the world.  Not so surprised its in the UK considering the UKs history there.

I heard someone had an idea of letting the white farmers back onto the land, as
1) they know how to actually take farm
2) They would be productive

I'm not saying, put them back there and keep them there.  But when your economy is that broken, you need to start with getting the basics right and keep them going.

Jazz

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Re: Zimbabwe and Mugabe
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2017, 03:57:31 PM »
An artist friend posted this on FB, and I found it to be interesting.

Quote
Robert Mugabe was initially a good revolutionary and leader but he eventually became corrupted by power. Absolute power eventually becomes obsolete power. Mugabe made some serious mistakes, as it relates to the way he approached reallocation of land to the disenfranchised Africans, and how he treated the white population/non-Black African populations of Zimbabwe. I firmly believe in the redistribution of land to the indigenous Africans, however, that task must be done with visionary thinking skills, and justice at its foundation. Two wrongs can never make one right!

Mugabe got lost along the way, he started out doing good and wound up doing WELL for him, his colleague, and clique, which is more than disappointing, it is dismaying and a through back to the very powers that he and the people of Zimbabwe opposed and fought ardently to depose. There is nothing that Mugabe could do in another term that he had not done in forty years of rule, and then he had the gall to try and shoe in his very corrupt wife as the new leader of Zimbabwe, simply reprehensible! Mugabe should have stepped down a long, long time ago with dignity rather than in disgrace.
Want all lose all!

Robert Mugabe reminds me of François Duvalier, also known as "Papa Doc" of Haiti. Both were fabulous visionaries that grew massive and impenetrable mental, ideological, philosophical, and character cataracts! When the leaders have no vision the people suffer and die, and the people must install new leaders with short-term limits, and with vigilant and diligent oversights on the part of the people!

Whoever takes over from Mugabe has to be strong, incorruptible and stealthy. Remember that the so-called advanced nations and their cooperations don't really want to see/have a progressive and righteous African leader, a leader that has the interest of their people and Africa at heart because that will mean an end to unfair access to their/Africa's natural resources. Remember what happened to Patrice Lumumba and other progressives? "The Red Scare," and "Red Baiting" was used as justification for murdering them in their own countries!

Sssith

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Re: Zimbabwe and Mugabe
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2017, 09:28:50 PM »
Fabulous visionaries?  Holy cow I think that misses the boat on both those leaders.  Haiti the poorest country in the West, and it is tough to even think of the right term for the mess that Mugabe made of things.  Both were massively self serving and shinning examples of where corruption can lead.

TheMikrobe

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Re: Zimbabwe and Mugabe
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2017, 06:02:40 AM »
My thoughts on Mugabe can be summed up by responding to these two points.

Quote
Robert Mugabe was initially a good revolutionary and leader but he eventually became corrupted by power.

I don't know the full details of what led up to the revolution in the late 70s but from what I'm aware of I'd say it was probably a good and necessary thing (with no comment on the actual conduct of it). I'd guess Mugabe was probably always a bad guy though, and his dictatorial tendencies are what would have got him to the leadership of the independence movement. This seems like a common problem, you need a strongman to lead your resistance, but then once the goal is achieved they aren't the kind of people to just step aside and let those with more collaborative tendencies take over.

Quote
I firmly believe in the redistribution of land to the indigenous Africans, however, that task must be done with visionary thinking skills, and justice at its foundation.

This (also in South Africa) is a really complicated issue. I think Mugabe's rhetoric was basically that "white people should go home to Europe". But some of their ancestors have been in Africa for hundreds of years, and their culture and language (if they speak Afrikaans) are native to Africa. Having said that, their wealth was achieved by brutally exploiting the black population, and some redistribution and selective preferment seem fair and necessary to re-establish a more equal society.

Southern Africa is particularly interesting, because the current black population had colonised the area (displacing the earlier population) up to around only 600 years before the white population arrived, and in the Cape region the black and white people both arrived at about the same time and squeezed the original population from two sides. See this wiki page for some information. I don't mention this to support a disgusting justification of the "you did it before us, so we can do it to you" kind. But when people make arguments like "they've been there for thousands of years and you just turned up and stole their land", that is just not true. (Actually, you often see people say "millions of years" on the basis that humans evolved in Africa and are still living there, as if any human culture or genetic population anywhere has never moved from their original homeland. Israel and Ireland are other countries where the same kind of comments are made.) It's interesting to compare to the country I know best, i.e. New Zealand, where the population that Europeans interacted with really were the only people to ever have lived there. Ultimately I'm against any kind of argument saying this is their land for their people, which is all a bit too much like "blood and soil" for my liking. You have to acknowledge past injustices and work to achieve a fairer society, especially for any groups that are particularly disadvantaged, but you also have to recognise the current population as a whole has a right to be there and prosper no matter when their ancestors arrived.

Two personal anecdotes. My ancestors arrived in NZ only about 18 months before I was born, but if you tried to take my New Zealand identity away you'd get a pretty short two-word reply. I was in Namibia earlier this year, which has some pretty horrific events in its colonial era history, and found it a really fascinating mix of cultures: English, Afrikaans, German, 2 or 3 Bantu, and 2 or 3 pre-Bantu all in the same place.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 06:08:09 AM by TheMikrobe »
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