Author Topic: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers  (Read 3716 times)

Timinator

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Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« on: December 19, 2017, 03:00:54 PM »
No thread yet, I'm sure most of us have seen this already.  I saw some talking on Facebook.

A few thoughts I had from my first and so far only viewing:

It seemed to go on a lot longer than I expected
There were a number of plot twist I didn't see coming
Diversity everywhere, this is very much a 2017 movie
Lots of character development
Maybe more humour than normal? There were a few times a bunch of people in the laughed out loud.
Only a few space battles or lightsabre action, but less than some others surely.
At least one kid did a WOOOOOAH moment when the rebel ship jumped and ripped through the other one.
Those penguin things are the new wookies?

Apart from some thoughts of .. "ok, they must be wrapping it up here, then, nope its still going!" I enjoyed it.

I have MANY questions, but I'm sure quite a few of you who know things outside the main movies will understand all the backstory.

I have seen headlines about controversy, but I haven't bothered to read it.  No Jar Jar, no cruddy teen romance.  Overall a pass from me.


I'm not sure how it will be with a 2nd or subsequent viewing.

Sssith

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2017, 03:49:10 PM »
I was less than thrilled at the direction they took Luke's character.  His last scene at least was pretty bad ass.

As for the ship going into hyperspace to destroy everything I was pretty upset at that.  Are you trying to tell me that if that worked why wouldn't it have been the defacto way of blowing shit up?  Line up three hammer head cruisers and hyperspace right into the death star.  You just automate that thing and no need to waste life of the pilots.  Hell just build big ass spears with a hyperdrive on it.

All that said though I did enjoy the movie.  It mostly made sense.  In particular Rey and Ren are both interesting in their own ways.

I'm not sure where the end leaves us.  Kylo in charge.  The rebellion down to a handful of people.

Timinator

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2017, 05:06:57 PM »
The rebellion from the start of the movie has a handful, but there are going to be a massive uprising everywhere like an Arab Spring type thing.

maybe the final will be one of those things, a grasshopper eating ants, until the ants eat the grasshopper and it gets overwhelmed.

maxbeedo

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2017, 07:18:44 PM »
I've been tearing this movie apart up and down the internet, so I didn't want to make the thread here.  I'll sum up in that this is basically a Troll film.  It waves off mysteries Ep. 7 set up that could've led somewhere, and when it offers up a plot choice, it takes the most uninteresting one every time.  Almost every character in the film ends up the same way they started (Kylo and Rey in particular), the humor falls flat on 90% of the jokes, and the premise has so many holes that this movie basically didn't need to exist at all.  It's a bad film, and a bad Star Wars film, and a bad sequel, all at once. 

Timinator

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2017, 03:39:03 AM »
So curious then, what would you have wanted Episode 8 to be? or what changes?

Darkness

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2017, 05:49:24 AM »
I thoroughly enjoyed it. A movie that completely defied my expectations and was very much the breath of fresh air the franchise needed.

After VII I was worried about the future of Star Wars. I'm not any more.

Darkness

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2017, 05:59:27 AM »
As for the ship going into hyperspace to destroy everything I was pretty upset at that.  Are you trying to tell me that if that worked why wouldn't it have been the defacto way of blowing shit up?  Line up three hammer head cruisers and hyperspace right into the death star.  You just automate that thing and no need to waste life of the pilots.  Hell just build big ass spears with a hyperdrive on it.

This is one of the few bones of contention I have with the movie and for exactly the same reasons as you. Indeed, given the way things work moving at relativistic speeds work, you could theoretically destroy a Death Star by flying a Y-wing into it.

And here's the thing. Before the Crusier goes to lightspeed, the Force Order twig what she's about to do and they are aware of the potential consequences of that. Which means there is a precedent for this sort of action and probably a reason why it isn't normally used.

However, for the life of me I can't think of a reason that's stands up to scrutiny. It can't be because it was "too heinous" a thing to do, given the Force Order and Empire created planet destroying weapons. Indeed, given ethics and morals aren't a consideration, just getting clone pilots to fly ships at lightspeed into planets is probably a more effective way of destroying planets than building a giant frikkin space station.

So my guess is that there is a technical reason. What that might be, I do not know.

maxbeedo

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2017, 10:23:37 AM »
So curious then, what would you have wanted Episode 8 to be? or what changes?

I didn't have any specific things I "absolutely had to see" in the film.  I think Ep.7 and the first half of this film set up things to be interesting, but it intentionally avoids any significant risks. 

The Kylo and Rey conversations set up their relationship fairly well, and I could have believed any major change they did with them.  Rey could've turned Kylo, Kylo could've turned Rey, they could've become kind of an odd couple duo without really changing their allegiance, they could've run off together to elope and disappear from the story, whatever.  Instead, they don't change whatsoever.  This is ultimately why Snoke's death sucks.  Whatever you think about the theories about Snoke, THIS MOVIE sets up Snoke as an interesting badass, by itself, and then squashes that.  He's less interesting than Kylo as the pure force of evil, but he's a good source of conflict.  Snoke is now dead, and Kylo is now Snoke, so you've killed off one character while making another less interesting.  Kylo using Rey's parentage to turn her to the dark side would've made sense too (whether it was a lie or not), but sadly they're setting them up to be the eternal good-versus-evil struggle so they can make infinity more movies. 

The only death in the movie that has any meaning whatsoever was Rose's sister, since that is her motivation for her actions.  Ackbar dies and it's a throwaway line.  Phasma dies and no one cares (she's the new Boba Fett).  Luke dies but Rey and Leia are totally ok with it, plus it doesn't matter anyway because Force Ghosts (that can now affect the universe normally as per Yoda).  Leia DOESN'T die which would've been a dramatic moment for many characters (Kylo, Luke, Poe, all of the Resistance).  Finn DOESN'T die which would've also been dramatic and been "the spark" for the Resistance.  In every case, this movie chooses the least interesting option.  This is what I meant by this being a Troll film.  This movie does not take ENOUGH risks (I'm being completely consistent with my problems with Ep. 7), but dangles the possibilities in front of us just to piss us off.

The humor as a whole is terrible.  The Poe/Hux conversation at the beginning belittles Hux in a way that makes us not fear the First Order whatsoever.  "Chrome Dome" and "Yeah, Rebel Scum" do the same to Phasma.  Humor has its place in Star Wars, but not to kill the tension in battle scenes.  They had no clue how to separate the serious bits from the humor.  The milking scene was awkward, Finn in the bacta suit was meh, though I did chuckle at Luke teasing Rey with the branch.

The premise of the film is a huge problem.  I was already in "WTF" mode when the FIRST LINE of the text crawl says "THE FIRST ORDER RULES THE GALAXY".  What?  This movie takes place 5 seconds after TFA.  The First Order just lost their main base, and only blew up a few planets, so how do they RULE THE GALAXY?  I don't want to go too much into the Canto Bight stuff because pretty much everyone hates that part.  The "Now it's worth it" line was the cringiest in the film.  The bigger problem is the whole space chase/Poe-Holdo thing.  If Holdo tells Poe her plan (keep in mind that the Resistance trusted him with finding the map to Luke BY HIMSELF), then 3/4ths of the movie doesn't need to exist, and she refuses to do so even after he mutinies.  They literally could've taken her out of the film and it would've made more sense.  There would've been a power vacuum while Leia was incapacitated which Poe would've tried to fill, and then Leia returns to "teach Poe his lesson" when Poe makes the more-rash-than-necessary decision.  Then you have Leia staying behind on the ship to zip it through the fleet (as mentioned, this scene looked cool but it has weird implications for the rest of the series), which further cements the lesson Poe learns and forces him to grow into the leader the Resistance needs.  The whole "Holdo and Leia were totally in cahoots with a great plan, the audience should feel bad for doubting her, Poe should learn to obey his superiors without question" setup is garbage.  The First Order is again shown to be bumbling idiotic Disney villains by not trying ANYTHING to stop the Resistance.  They don't launch hundreds of TIEs (even after Kylo takes out their hangar), don't send any other ships to cut them off, nothing.  They also decide not to fire on Finn/Rose while they have their little moment (though they really should both be dead, especially with open canopies on those things).  They also conveniently forgot how to deal with snub fighters (that they've been fighting for 30+ years), when they had homing missiles to shoot down the stolen TIE in the last film.  Nothing involving a Resistance/First Order battle in the next film with have any tension whatsoever.

I'm not completely against what they did with Luke in this film.  It does crush me that Mark Hamill hates what they did so much.  We don't get to see what changed him from the "pure, never willing to give up on my family" farmboy who refused to kill Vader in the hopes of turning him to the bitter old man willing to kill his nephew at the first sign of evil, which is a pretty big change.  I would've liked to see Luke actually teach Rey something.  Rey being this perfect light side force user is simply to promote Disney's message of "Anyone can be a Jedi if they BELIEEEEEVE".  She doesn't struggle with anything (except her parentage, which is squashed in this film).  Luke teaching her some true humility like the "That is why you fail" line from Yoda would've helped her character a lot.  Good thing she learned how to move rocks so she can show up at the end to save the day by moving some rocks!  I do like that Luke decided not to solve everything at the end through violence though.

Ultimately, this film kills off forces of conflict in Snoke, Phasma and Luke, and makes everyone else less interesting by taking away or resolving unsatisfactorily conflicts they had.  Why should anyone care about Ep. 9?  Or Ep. 7 for that matter?  This movie provides nothing on its own, marginalizes its predecessor, and hamstrings its successor.  If you found the one person on Earth who hated Star Wars the most and forced them to make this film, I'm not sure they could've done any worse.

Timinator

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2017, 02:53:30 PM »
Darkness: I wonder if there was no precedent, but sometimes the first time someone does something brand new, you think .. they can't/won't do that, then realise OMG, if they do, it could/might do X.  In this case X might mean rip a hole in their ship.

There are always unintended consequences.    Many times in real life, there are inquiries to find out "how the hell did something happen, or can we stop it".    Now this might be going out on a going out on a limb, but is that hyperspace jump similar to crashing 9/11 and crashing a jet into twin towers?   Most people wouldn't think, or imagine about such a thing.   

However, think back to your thoughts with a plane on collision course.  A mixture of sheer horror, you don't know exactly what will happen, but you KNOW it will be bad, you know that no one can do anything to stop it. You are helpless and an ordinary object is suddenly used in a way it shouldn't be.   When I think back to the First Order people on the bridge, it might be a matching emotion.

If a death star is killing a planet, well that object is doing its purpose.  Its horrible, but it was built just to do that.

I wonder if Holdo knew it would actually rip them up like that?  She already kept her strategy to herself.

Darkness

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2017, 04:53:33 PM »
It's possible that what she did had unexpected consequences but, that still makes her actions a game changer for warfare in the Star Wars universe.

Cluck Kent

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2017, 04:29:17 PM »
I think Luke finally figured out that he wasn't a hero and in fact, was the doofus Jedi. He never really learned how to curb his impulsiveness, made mistake after mistake and had to be bailed out time and time again. And in TLJ the mistakes simply continue. Practically every time he opens his mouth he's screwing something up. All these years to commune with some of the greatest Jedi minds and his solution is to run away and hide while the galaxy burns?  He creates a monster and then simply gets outta Dodge? Only the Doofus Jedi could imagine that sort of outcome was the right move. 'Master Yoda would be so impressed to know that I put all his training to good use by pouting for 30 years. He couldn't have picked a better guy to entrust the Jedi legacy to.'

This episode reduced Skywalker to the rank of an idiot.




Cluck Kent

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 04:39:14 PM »
The whole Holdo thing was a mess. Did they write this part in because Dern was somebody's pal? What a crappy part she had to play. It sure felt like her character was just scribbled in with no thought or complexity.  And as Darkness pointed out, why in the world would she not include Poe in the planning? When the other 2 ships were getting low on fuel, why not transport the crews to the main ship and then light speed those babies into the 1st Order ships?

Kasferatu

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2017, 05:13:07 PM »
I thought the film was ok. I think there are serious problems with the world building that i might go into when I have more time (e.g. first order, despite no longer having the resources of ruling the galaxy, builds bigger and better super weapons and star destroyers than ever before.

Also, why didn't the first order just hyperspace some ships to the other side of the fleeing fleet?

Cluck Kent

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2017, 08:28:19 AM »
Not only why did they not hyperspace in front of the fleeing ships, but...we are told that the Rebel ships are smaller, lighter and faster than the 1st order fleet and in fact we watch as the Rebels pull out of range and then stay just out of range. Doesn't try to increase it's advantage, so obviously they must have slowed to the speed of the 1st Order to...save fuel?

I still liked the movie, will watch it again in theatre, buy the Bluray when it comes out, but it had some major plot and pacing issues.

Darkness

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Re: Last Jedi thoughts with spoilers
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2017, 11:01:05 AM »
Also, why didn't the first order just hyperspace some ships to the other side of the fleeing fleet?

Don't know. One could conjure up all sorts of reasons.
I've settled into the entirely comfortable place of not caring.